Sara:
All the women came together and we’re singing. And I was like, Oh my God, we don’t process grief alone. Like we’re not meant to process this alone. A lot of people, especially grandmothers or these traditions are still alive. Like they get in a circle and they wear their brightest colors and they sing about it.
And like through singing and through dancing, that’s how people process things.
Nancy:
Welcome to the Nancy Levin show. I’m Nancy Levin, founder of Levin Life Coach Academy, bestselling author. Master coach and your host. I help overachieving people pleasers set boundaries that stick and own self worth anchored in empowered action so you can feel free.
Plus, if you’re an aspiring or current coach, you are in the right place. Join me each week for coaching and compelling conversations designed to support you in the spotlight as you take center stage of [00:01:00] your own life. Let’s dive in.
Welcome back to the Nancy Levin Show and you are in for a treat today. I am bringing you Sara Surani.
She is an activist, entrepreneur, educator, researcher, and co-founder of She is the Universe, a global movement for girls empowerment. She has lived and worked all over the world, bridging storytelling with gender equity, health advocacy, and education.
From fishing towns in Tanzania, To the depths of the Amazon jungle. Sara works with community empowerment and entrepreneurship globally, collaborating with grassroots and governments across the U S Asia, Africa, and Latin America. [00:02:00] She believes that stories move people and have the power to change the world.
A daughter of Pakistani Muslim immigrants in South Texas, Sara holds degrees from Harvard University and Tsinghua University. She is a Fulbright Fellow and a Schwarzman Scholar, and is always looking for an excuse to learn a new language.
Sara is also the author of the brand new book, Songs of My Grandmother, her debut poetry and prose collection.
So I had the great fortune of meeting Sara and mentoring her in Hay House’s Diverse Wisdom Initiative. And I’m also incredibly grateful that I had an early exposure to Sara’s writing, her process, and this manuscript that became Songs of My Grandmother on finding ourselves, each other, and the things that make us come alive.
Nancy:
This is a magnificent book. And, in fact, I’m also incredibly honored that my own endorsement of Sara’s work is on the back cover of her book. And so I said, Songs of My Grandmother is a lyrical invitation to embrace the fullness of our humanity.
Sara explores the sacred dance between grief and joy, belonging and loss.
With every page, she tenderly holds our hands and guides us through the complexities of identity, showing us how the stories of our ancestors shape the very essence of who we are. A testament to the resilience of love and the enduring strength of the human spirit.
Prepare to be moved, inspired, and transformed.
Nancy: Welcome, Sara.
Sara: Thank you so much for having me. And so I’m so excited to see you again as well.
Nancy: I’m really, I’m so happy to see you. I feel like I got a front row seat to this whole experience for you. And, um, I love seeing the final book, knowing everything that we even began exploring together in terms of the way that you began crafting the manuscript itself.
So I would love to just begin with hearing a little bit about your experience as a first time author and how this book came to be and how this is going for you.
Sara: Yeah. Thank you so much for asking my question. I feel like.. even like I’m still stepping into it because even the word author, when you say it, I’m like, Oh my God, I’m an author.
Sara: I feel like it doesn’t happen until like I get the book in my hand because what if it goes away?
Um, but I think the biggest aspect, I think the whole journey is I always tell people like, um, writing this book has been the easiest thing I’ve ever done. Um, and not because it was easy.
Like if you, Nancy, you’ve read the book, like I go into all the depths of human emotion.
So. It was very difficult going to those places sometimes, um, but it was easy because it wasn’t something I wanted to do, it was something I needed to do.
And like, my writing process, I also like, was very um, like, tender with myself during the process. I didn’t quite have like, the discipline every single day, but every time the urge to write came up, I honored that above anything else.
Sara: And so I felt like that by itself, was a healing experience. And like,
I don’t know if I ever shared this with you, but like Nancy, you and I were in this like, um, this fellowship and with like two other incredible women. And like, I felt when I applied to this writing fellowship, I was so excited. It was a dream to be able to get into a writing fellowship.
Sara: And then right before, like right before the first meeting, we met up in, Edinburgh for the first time. And right before then, I had gotten, like a week before, I had gotten attacked on the subway, um, in New York City.
And my experience the first year of the whole fellowship, I was like experiencing PTSD, right?
Sara: And how that, like, I am someone who has a lot of feelings and emotions. And the way that it most directly manifested was that I like, um, felt so disassociated from my emotions. Um, and I couldn’t write. Right?
Like, the only time I wrote, like, I remember every single week we would have this, uh, every single month we’d have a meeting, and you’d be like, so, how is writing going?
And every single month I would show up and I would be like, nothing. I wrote nothing. Like I wrote nothing again, or like I didn’t write anything again. And different people would be like developing their book proposals or book manuscripts.
And every single month for like the nine months of this fellowship, I couldn’t write.
Sara: And I felt so much guilt about that, about like, being a writer and not being able to write and being in a writing fellowship. And like, minus like each meeting we had like an exercise… you would do a writing exercise.
Um, so I would like, write during that with a prompt for that moment and try to like, imagine what I would feel, but like, I couldn’t really write, um, and so that imposter syndrome was there, and so when I even got the book deal, I was like, how am I going to do this?
Sara: Like, how did I, like, I had written in the past and it’s a collection over the years. I was like, how am I going to write this when I haven’t written?
Um, I mean, a friend of mine, yeah. was like, Sara, like, what if you let go of this idea that you have to be a writer? And I had so much resistance in letting that go.
Sara: The day that I let that go, I started to write again. Um, and so like this, I tell people like the year of like, where I couldn’t write as much was like, being kind of constipated.
And the year I was writing the book, I was like, it was just like, it was just like diarrhea. Like, it was just like, it just came out of me.
Sara: I was like, I can’t, I can’t not write this. So I think like all those, um, and then also like the experience of writing the book, it is divided by colors and each color is a different emotion.
Um, and so it can be, you don’t, you can read it beginning to end or you can pick it up wherever, but the journey follows this, like, almost this wave of emotions.
Sara: And so I, as I submitted chapters to my editor, I followed, I myself was following that journey that the book takes. So it like, in many ways I wrote it for myself or like I, it was like something that I needed to write and I needed to, to get out there.
Nancy: I remember when we were in one of our conversations talking about outlines and ways to lay out the book and you said, you know, can I lay it out in colors?
And it was amazing. I remember our conversation about that and how that really began to unlock something in you, being able to see it that way. And I so appreciate the story that you just shared as I was not aware that that is what was happening.
Nancy: And really, how, I mean, your own story of resiliency and your own story of stick-with it-ness and trust that, you know, that the book was going to come.
And you know, I want to say for everyone listening, I mean, you heard, you heard the bio, I mean, you are an incredibly impressive woman, not only for your accomplishments, but for who I have known you to be in this kind of a setting.
Nancy: And I honestly could not be happier for you having this, uh, debut collection published. And this is a really important book.
This is an important book for the time we’re living in right this minute. This is an important book for everyone to be exposed to. For what you expose in this book and, you know, ranging from cultural identity to intergenerational trauma to the life of an immigrant in the United States, the power of community, grief, resilience.
Nancy: Uh, the global perspective on womanhood, I could go on and on and on to why I find what you’re sharing so important. And I’m curious as we sort of start diving into the book itself, what feels the most, uh, I would say like, what has the most heat about your book for you right now in the climate we are living in?
Sara: Oh, I think like, I think one thing when I think a lot about this book and it makes me so emotional because I’m like, I remember where I wrote every single piece. I remember exactly where I wrote it. I remember exactly what was happening.
One thing that I think a lot about is like this hopelessness that sometimes we feel.
Sara: For me, what’s special about this book is like my primary intention wasn’t for it to be read by the world. I wrote it for myself. And I think when I wrote it for myself, um, It was what I needed to hear.
So like, even in sometimes there were moments where, of hopelessness that I was experiencing and feeling and like, but when I wrote, I like dropped hope into it as well. Right?
And like, this whole idea that, you know, there’s so many things going around in the world, right? There’s like, there’s genocide, there’s war, there’s like this whole, you know, like, capitalism, fascism, like all these things that are going on.
Like, also we are like, We’ve had more resources than ever, but like, people are lonelier than ever.
Sara: There’s this like, lack of belonging that people feel, like mental health is so low, you know, suicide rates are so high, and there’s so much hopelessness, right? Um, you turn on the news and it’s just, it’s tragic, you know, and I think that like, When I write, I think that I bring the pain of this into it.
Sara: Someone once was like, is it a political book? And I was like, it’s not a political book, but it’s about life and life gets political, you know, and you can’t run away from these things.
Like you can’t run, you just can’t close the TV and live in a bubble. But like, at the same time, there is hope, you know, and the hope looks different.
Sara: You know, sometimes the hope is like, I always use the example of like, When you’re experiencing, like, the deepest grief or you’re so sad, like, it, the hug of a friend just feels so much warmer.
And like, in those moments, that’s hope, right? Sometimes hope is like a sunset. Sometimes hope is like, like someone like making lunch for you when you’re like really stressed.
Sara: So it’s like, it doesn’t mean that hope is one thing, but I feel like that’s what this book is.
Why it’s, why it’s important now is like, I don’t shy away from the grief and the darkness. Like I run towards it, but like find the like little pockets and strings of hope that like exist within it.
Yeah. Or I try to, right.
And so when I write, I was like, I need it for myself. I was like, Oh my God, the world is so rough. What do I do?
Sara: And I was like, okay. How do we, how do we find, how do we find the hope? How do we find the joy? Like joy is, joy is resistance, right? Like hope is resistance. So it’s like, how do we find that?
Nancy: So will you talk a little bit about, you mentioned, you mentioned this in the book, being a hyphenated identity.
Sara: Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah. I think that, you know, I think it’s really important to be talking about this and to be allowing in the resonance for that.
Sara: Yeah. Thank you. Um, I actually start the book with a poem and it’s about how I grew up with like my parents and even like identity is so complicated because I like, um, say I’m Pakistani American, right?
Sara: But like, Like, my family has like, oh, my ancestors are from India and Bangladesh, and they migrated to Pakistan. So even my like, family has hyphenated identities, right?
Like as refugees, as migrants, like coming to America, right? And so it’s like, um, I think a lot about borders and how these borders create identities and how those identities create like who we think we are.
Sara: And so I talk about being an air plant, um, and how, like, my, like, the dreams that my mother had for me when she immigrated to, and my father, right?
But like, when they came here, it was like dreams for a better life for my child that I don’t even have yet, right? The sacrifices that were made before you even exist, right?
Sara: And like, how, for generations, like, sacrifice, self sacrifice has like been an act of love. But the idea that something in front of us can be even better than what was behind us.
But at the same time, then I explain about how it’s like, okay, well, I’m not like, like a brave oak or a sweet mango tree, but I’m an air plant.
So like, my roots feel like they’re scattered. My roots feel like they’re in the air. My roots feel like, and at the same time, because like, home and belonging is something you’re always searching for, I feel like people sometimes like in the, like a lot of like their culture kids are like hyphenated people with hyphenated identities.
Sara: Like you’re searching for like, give me a box so I can fit in. Um, give me, give me a place where the roots look just like mine. But it’s not like that.
So I feel like a lot of the book is also just like playing with that and kind of coming to terms with like, I’m here. This is it. And being an air plant doesn’t mean that you don’t have roots anywhere.
Sara: It means that you have roots everywhere, right? You’re like a, like a, I had once had someone tell me like with, with skin, the color of earth, you are the daughter of all lands.
So like, what does that mean? What does that mean to yeah, connect.
Nancy: Let’s talk a little bit about the role of the grandmothers.
Obviously the grandmothers play a central, a central role in the book. Share a bit about, you know, the wisdom, the traditions, the songs that are passed down through generations and their influences on your identity.
Sara: I think like, so the reason it’s called Songs of My Grandmother, it’s so funny because my grandmother thinks the book has a biography about her.
Um, and I’m not going to correct her. She doesn’t speak English.
So it’s just going to be a secret. That’s like, okay, you know, this is fine.
But the reason it’s called Songs of My Grandmother is because, and a lot of culture is, especially like my culture, like we don’t talk about trauma. Like I don’t, there are, I recently found out, like I very recently found out like how my grandmother immigrated from India to Pakistan, right?
Sara: Like in the past year and a half, like during this book, right? Um, and I think that like that story to like, ask her about it.
Like, it was so challenging because she didn’t want to talk about it, right? And like, even the story that she shared, my aunt actually, uh, shared like a lot of like a, from her memory of what happened, because she was a bit older at the time.
Sara: And like, the whole thing is that we don’t talk about trauma.
Like my grandmother drew so many stories. I will never know what happened, but the, the places I hear the stories or the places I kind of hear the emotional, um, the motions about like what actually happened is through songs, right? Like, I grew up like, I’m, I grew up Ismaili, which is like, um, a religious minority within Islam.
Sara: And in Ismaili, a lot of our culture is through songs. And so we grew up singing Ganans and Geats that like shared stories.
We also grew up like hearing guzzles and different like, songs that are like, people come together and sing.
But the most powerful for me is one of my favorite, um, like parts. I like the love, like the stereotype of that, like the, like the whole Indian wedding is like culturally, like we have a very long weddings and there’s a night called the Pitti where a lot of like women come together and like women come together and like the aunties and the grandmas and the nannies and daddies and they’re all singing.
Sara: But the songs are kind of all improvised and they like. There’s a tune and there’s like, you know, lyrics. And if you listen to lyrics, you’re like, Oh, this is like, actually like not a generic song.
It’s like a very specific song. And I realized then that like, Oh, these women are talking about their stories, right?
Sara: Is through song. And I went to a friend’s wedding in Tunisia last year, I believe. And, and the same thing was happening there, right?
Like all the women came together and were singing, but instead of in like Urdu and Hindi and Gujarati, like my family, they were singing in Arabic and French and I was like, Oh my God, like we don’t process grief alone.
Sara: Like, we don’t, we’re not meant to process this alone.
Like, a lot of people, especially grandmothers, or these traditions are still alive. Like, they get in a circle and they like wear their brightest colors and they sing about it, you know? And like, through singing and through dancing, like, that’s how people process things like it’s not that people don’t process grief and trauma like I’m used to hearing about it like right on a podcast, you know, like, that’s just not how it is.
And so I think like, reflecting on that, and like what it means, but also like, I play on this in my book with like the Songs of My Grandmother, but like, if every time my grandmother expressed emotions, it was only through a song, then that means that every time I, or we, express emotions, that must also be a song. Yeah.
Nancy: I, myself, am very interested in intergenerational trauma and looking at the way that grief is experienced and passed down.
Nancy: And you know, so there’s pieces here. Around, you know, the way that you do beautifully juxtapose grief and hope, as you mentioned earlier, and grief and resilience, because we’re finding meaning and growth in these moments of profound loss.
Sara: Yeah, that’s like, I’m smiling so big because I love it. And I loved intergenerational trauma. Like I’m like, it’s like my favorite topic to talk about. But I think like with intergenerational trauma, there’s also intergenerational healing. Right. And with collective trauma, there’s also collective healing.
And we’ve focused so much on intergenerational trauma. Like I’m, I’m literally like, I went back to school to study this, but also like, there’s so much healing that can come from it, too.
Like, even the idea of something being intergenerational, like, I think that we have this pressure that, like, and there’s so much, so many studies that have been done on intergenerational trauma and epigenetics and how, like, the trauma that your, your grandmother, your grandmother, your mother experienced, like, up to, like, X generations, like, that’s, that’s now coded in our DNA.
Sara: That’s right. Actually, like there are a lot of like, you know, heart, cardiac, heart, uh, higher, like different, like heart problems and mental health problems like are a result of this, right?
You know, like generations of stress that have compounded, but, but there’s also research that shows how, like, as like, as you heal, you’re also like, like changing the codes of future DNA, right?
Sara: Which like I, it blew my mind because I didn’t think that was possible, but like. It also shows how, like, there’s so much, um, we must always remember where we came from, but, but we must not forget where we’re going. And I think that, like, if we get stuck on the intergenerational trauma, like, it’s, we forget where we’re going.
Sara: And it’s important I get stuck there, but, like, it, it’s important, like, I mean, like, as I totally get stuck there, but it’s, like, yeah. We must not forget where we came from, but we must almost remember where we’re going.
Nancy: Yeah, and you know, so the title really does emphasize songs as a metaphor for stories, and how we can use storytelling and creative expression to really honor our ancestors, navigate the personal healing, and move into a new future.
That may have not been envisioned at one time. And there is a way that we then get to bring the people of our past into the future that we’re creating.
Sara: Yeah. No, it’s like exactly that, you know, like, um, there’s an interview that I’m like, my probably my favorite interview of Oprah and Maya Angelou. And I’m, I’m like, paraphrasing this a bit, but Oprah’s like, like, Maya, like, you’re like the most confident woman I’ve ever met.
When you walk into a room, like everyone just stares at you, like, Did you know you’re, like, the most, like, confident woman I’ve ever met?
And Maya Angelou’s like, Yes. Yes, I do.
And Oprah’s like, Like, how? And she’s like, Because when I walk in a room, it’s not just me walking into a room. It’s like a hundred people, like all my ancestors and anyone I’ve ever met who’s walking into a room.
Sara: And like, when that many people walk into a room, like, how could everyone not stop and stare at you?
And that’s why I feel like this book is like, it’s not just me, right?
They’re like, hundreds of people who are like in this book in different ways, like touching this book or like stories within it or like the advice that people have given me, like it’s not just me, you know, like this book isn’t like it’s, it’s a collection of everyone I’ve met and everyone I know.
Nancy: So you mentioned the piece about colors. And I want to talk a little bit more, you were, really it’s like colors as emotional symbols. Right. You know, that’s the way the book is structured, uh, representing different emotions. And this is a very singular, and I would say even now signature framework for you.
Nancy: And I’m curious for you to share a bit about how the colors enhance the storytelling for you. Okay.
Sara: Yeah, I think that for me, like what the colors meant is like organizing this book is, you know, Nancy, like, I found it very challenging because I was like, well, it’s not chronological, it’s not a theme, like truly the themes range from like everything from like eating eggs on a Sunday to like genocide, right?
Sara: Like, it’s like such a big range. And so it’s like, how can I, how can I divide this? Right. And I think that what I write about or what I lean towards is like, the emotions that things evoke. And so, kind of thinking about that, I thought about the colors, um, and I noticed that in my writing a lot of colors came up.
Sara: And a lot of times I would mention colors and they were associated with different feelings without even realizing it. Um, like I would like, um, and there’s a bit of magical realism in it at times, right? Like I’m, I’m like crying, but then the tears are purple.
And so it’s like, oh, okay, like maybe purple is grief, right?
Sara: Or like, rage felt more red or loneliness felt kind of blue. And so I played with these colors a bit. But the interesting thing about the process in itself is that every feeling has a little bit of other feelings in it. No feeling is just one color. So also like even the process of dividing these into chapters, like every piece can really go anywhere, you know, just because like everything has all emotions in it.
Sara: Um, but the fun part was that there were some longer pieces I’d written initially, and maybe the piece started kind of with more grief, and then it went to like loneliness, then it went through joy, and then it went through change, and then it had hope.
And I made the choice to like, cut the piece into five different pieces and spread them across the different chapters.
Sara: So like, maybe if you’re really paying attention, you know, it’s the same story, but, or you just, you take it as it is and you just read it by the emotions coming up.
And so it’s kind of to like, um, I love reframing the way we think about things, you know, and like, even the colors, like I may think of colors, some current colors this way, and you may think of it differently.
Sara: And it’s like, amazing. You know, like, please think of things differently, like, please push back on things, you know, like, the fact that you’re even questioning how you think about things, like, that’s the goal.
Um, and so I think, like, that whole thing was to frame, like, how even if things feel dark, which, like, right now in the world, so many things feel dark, like, there’s still color, like, how can you live a more colorful life?
Instead of just living in pastels or like choosing to live in gray.
So like, it’s kind of like every, every emotion, no matter how dark it is, is, is, is, is still colorful.
Nancy: And I must say to that point also, I think that the cover of the book is exquisite.
And the color and the richness and the sort of the texture and it just like feels velvety and yummy and inviting and warm colors.
And so I, I always love when I get to see a book. That looks like how I want it to look.
Sara: Thank you, Nancy. Yeah, I was, I like, didn’t design it. I had like the Hay House publishing team designed it. They did such a great job.
Nancy: Because I was like, it..
Sara: …feels warm, you know, I want it to
Nancy: feel
Sara: …like warm tea or like cozy blanket.
Nancy: Totally. Yeah, totally. Oh, thank you. Yes, of course.
So, you know, I want to sort of tap into these pieces around, uh, you know, the power of community first, You know, there are moments of collective healing described in the book, you know, singing together, dancing together, you know, like you’re sharing.
How do you see community rituals supporting individual and collective healing? Ooh.
Sara: Oh, I think it’s everything.
Yeah. I think like that’s one of the biggest challenges that we have in the world right now is this isolation, whether I, like from oneself or from one’s community or feelings of isolation with one’s country, like just ranges, but I think community is the center of it.
Sara: So many people are searching for it, and in today’s world, sometimes we, especially like in the U. S. and U. K., like, we put so much emphasis on, like, a romantic partner and them being everything.
So much pressure for one person, but also we weren’t meant to live that way, you know?
Like, it’s like, it’s like, I’ve learned everything I know about love from my female friendships, you know?
Sara: When I, like, was going through a breakup, my friend took a day off work. You know?
Like, that’s, like, all to say that, like, and Community is something that I feel like people use that buzzword and they throw it around a lot. Um, and I think what a lot of people have when they, when they feel like, oh, there are people I know and I think I have community, it doesn’t feel like it is like, someone once told me that a network is when you have your mask on.
Sara: And a community is when you can take your mask off.
Um, I, I’ve never heard that before. I loved that. And a lot of people may have like a big network, right? Or like social media or a lot of followers. But that doesn’t mean you have a community. Like, where, and it’s, it’s not like taking someone’s mask off.
Sara: Like, that may look different for you than it looks for me.
I can think you’re being totally yourself. But like, if you do not feel like you can take your mask off and feel safe doing so, and feel held doing so, then like, Maybe that’s not your community, right?
And like when you can take your mask off and you can feel safe and you can feel held and you can like in that vulnerability find like belonging in it, it doesn’t become about you anymore.
It becomes about something bigger than you like. It’s like this, it’s um, there’s a quote I love by this indigenous activist named Lila Watson that’s, um, if you have come to help me then you’re wasting your time, but if you have come because your liberation is bound in mine, then let us work together.
Nancy: Wow.
Sara: And it like, Yeah, I, it makes me so emotional every time I hear it, but it’s a whole thing about like collective liberation.
It’s the collective is a community, right? And in order to have a collective liberation, that doesn’t mean that like, Oh, Nancy, you’re having a hard day. Like, let me support you. I like, you know, it like, it’ll like, You, you look sad.
Sara: It’s like, Nancy, let me support you because I know what that sadness feels like.
Even if I don’t know what you’re going through, I can, I can sit with you through it. And so it’s not like I heal by sitting with you, like, and you heal by sitting with me.
So let’s just like sit together and sit with that.
Sara: And we don’t have to fix anything. We don’t have to do anything. Just sitting there with someone. With our masks off and just like looking at each other or like holding hands or just like looking at the zoom screen like community doesn’t have to be like 500 people it can be two people or one person or like anywhere you could have your mask off but where the shared like um the shared like what what holds you together like the threads that kind of like hold you both together is that you care about the us like the we is more important than the me you and when the we is more important than the me, like, there’s so much magic that happens.
Sara: And by magic, I mean collected healing, right? And as a result, as a result, individual healing too. So I feel like community is, is, is, I wish it would, like be the authentic community, not just like whatever that means for someone.
Nancy: Yeah.
Sara: Yeah.
Nancy: You know, throughout the book, you highlight feminine strength. Feminine wisdom, and especially in the face of systemic challenges across generations.
Nancy: I mean, there really is such a gorgeous weaving in this book of generations of cultures. You know, the global perspective on womanhood, uh, diverse cultures, diverse backgrounds. I’d love for you to share a bit about the impact on you of sharing about, you know, these universal threads connecting women despite differences in geography and culture and generations.
Sara: Yeah, that’s a really good question.
I think for me, it’s a reminder. I think that like more than anything, it’s a reminder. And I think that like society, especially the patriarchal societies, like, um, they benefit by making women smaller. That’s right.
You know, like, I remember Malala had said how it’s like, Oh, like, When half the world is silent, actually more than like more than half the world.
Sara: Um, I get like, I feel so like when I’m really emotional, I start crying. So I like love crying, but, um, a lot of talks about how like, um, like the people in power benefit when half the world is silent, you know.
And if half, more than half the world isn’t speaking up, like, who does that benefit? No, no one really.
Sara: It doesn’t benefit anyone. If half the men were sound, that wouldn’t benefit anyone either.
Like if half of anyone is sound, then it doesn’t benefit anyone. And I think that it’s like, not only, not only do systems, um, benefit by making women smaller, but women are rewarded for it. It’s so sad, but I see how women are rewarded.
Sara: Yeah. You know, like, like I’ve seen like in my own culture and like for talking to friends from different cultures, like the more submissive and quiet you are, the more people say like,
Oh, like if there’s a quiet kid who’s not, not playing and sitting in the corner, it’s like, wow, why you’ve raised such a good daughter, you know?
Sara: Or like, if there’s someone who always follows out what you’re saying is, wow, she’s so obedient. Like that is so like, wow, what a, what a respectful woman. You know, and I’m like, or like even grace, right? Like, I feel like grace is such a beautiful thing to have.
But if like someone like I’ve seen an office environment when a woman doesn’t stand up for what she believes in, like, wow, you know, like she handled that so gracefully.
Sara: And that just means like, no anger, no rage, no expressing this.
And like, It’s taken a long time for me to realize the power of anger and rage, Valerie core. Um, she talks a lot about love, but also like grief is the price we pay for love. And like, if you really love something, it’s going to hurt when it goes away, but that doesn’t mean that the love for it goes away.
Sara: Right. Um, and the same, same with anger. Like the same with anger is like anger protects you talk about how anger protects what we love. There’s so much love that women have and like being deprived of feeling angry for it. It’s how we keep people small, you know, it’s like, not just women, like with colored people to don’t get angry.
Sara: It’s like, okay, well, what do you think that anger is protecting? You know, that anger is protecting something that person cares about, like that shows that this is important. Like when, you know, like it’s. Even in the most, like, non violent movements in the world, there was so much anger. Anger is productive.
Sara: Anger, like, moves you towards something, you know? And I think that it’s, like, these kinds of, like, it’s just a reminder with these women, it’s, like, I, I write about like how, like a poem about anger,] but it’s like songs aren’t sung by silent women.
Mm-hmm. Like, it’s not the silent women that are standing up.
Sara: It’s not the silent women that are like changing the world. It’s not the silent women that are like changing the way the system works or fighting for they love or they love, it’s the angry woman.
It’s the woman who like is, is maybe sad enough to share what’s going on in her mind. It’s a woman who speaks up and it’s like, again, like. women are, like, validated and, like, complimented for being small, right?
And, like, we have to be or we wouldn’t be small. If we were, like, bad job being small, no one would, no one would be small. But women are, like, awarded and complimented and given raises. Like, the woman who stands up in her workplace, probably not getting a raise.
Sara: Woman who sits down quietly and doesn’t say anything, she’s the one who gets a raise, right? So we’re like, rewarded for being small, but it’s like, it’s just a reminder that like, the people I talk about in the book, like the women that I look up to, are the women who are changing their communities and changing the system or changing even their family unit and gender dynamics within it.
It’s because they are brave enough to not be small.
Nancy: Yeah. I mean, you know, the intersection here is of course, you know, we disown our anger and, and when we can really work with reclaiming that part of ourselves, we can harness its untapped power. And especially as women, I mean, I really have. Spent a lot of time in the past, I don’t know, a few months, really focusing in on really getting that.
The patriarchy had to dominate us into submission because of how powerful women actually are, and that women are so much more powerful than men.
I mean, we can give birth, we can do things that men will never ever be able to do. This is why women were burned at the stake for being witches.This is why women have been you know, sort of pushed into submission because of the power we hold.
Nancy: And, you know, I, I celebrate, you know, your generation who is really taking big swings and big action to make waves and to make change and I’m here for it.
And I mean, I’m doing it too. But there’s something about a new generation of super powerful women who are no longer willing to sit, to sit on the sidelines and who are willing to say, you know, I’m here and I’m diverse and I’m multicultural and I’m multi passionate and you know, see me experiencing, experience me, witness me and all of my glory.
Nancy: Yeah.
Sara: Oh, I love that. I like, I love how you said, see me, experience me and all of my glory. Because often, again, women feel like they have to, not just women, but like, often women like, yeah, have to put themselves into a box, you know, and they didn’t make the rules for the box,
Nancy: Right? Yeah. I mean, again, you know, it’s like we spend all this time and energy packaging ourselves to be palatable to everyone around us and the invitation now, I would say more than ever before.
Nancy: Not only in my lifetime, but in time, the invitation now more than ever before is to really, you know, step fully into the reclamation of all of all parts of ourselves, all of who we are to stand in that light and to, you know, illuminate ourselves and illuminate the path for others.
And I think that’s where community is extra important because doing that alone and standing up and, like, being seen alone, [00:40:00] terrifying, terrifying.
Sara: So scary, you know? But it’s like, if you have other people, you know, even if, like, they’re behind you or they’re beside you or they’re, like, cheering you on, like, that changes everything.
Nancy: Changes everything. Oh my goodness. I’m so excited for people to get their hands on your book, Songs of My Grandmother, on Finding Ourselves, Each Other, and the Things That Make Us Come Alive.
And not only to hold the book in our hands, but as we were talking before we started recording, you also got to do the audio book.
So I know that having already read the physical manuscript, I’m looking forward to having you share your own words in my ears.
Sara: Oh, thanks Nancy.
Nancy: I mean it. That means a lot. Sincerely. So what is the, where do you want to send people? What’s the best way for people to stay connected with you?
Sara: Amazing.
So, the book comes out on March 11th. The pre orders are live right now.
So you can buy the book and pre order the book. Anywhere you get your books online, whether it’s like independent bookstores, bookshop, uh, Amazon, like wherever you get your books, um, and then, uh, I have an Instagram so you can follow me at Sara Sarani, which is my first name and my last name.
Sara: Um, and I’ve been, I’ve been posting more of my, my writing and book information there.
Nancy: Really a joy to have you here. I feel really honored and proud, you know, to have been able to, to witness your journey and to have seen you before you even had this. manuscript in your hands to now having a book and it’s really been beautiful to witness and I’m excited for you and I’m excited for all of us who get to experience your work in the world.
Nancy: Thank you, Nancy. That means a lot. Your support means a lot. You’re so welcome. And for everyone listening, go grab her book, Songs of My Grandmother. And, uh, I’ll be back here again with you next week. Bye for now.
Thanks so much for joining me today. I invite you to head on over to nancylevin. com to check out all the goodies I have there for you. And if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a rating, and a review. I’ll meet you back here next week.