Mona Nour: The more spaces in our lives we can experience belonging, and the more layers within those spaces that we can experience belonging being seen, embraced, and celebrated within those different layers and in the spaces where they all overlap, the richer our experiences can be.
Nancy Levin: Welcome to the Nancy Levin Show.
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Nancy Levin: Welcome back to another episode of the Nancy Levin show. I am so delighted today to bring you my friend and pretend cousin, Dr. Mona Nour. She is a licensed mental health therapist, researcher, professor, and host of the podcast Belonging Reimagined.
She founded Noor Counseling, a large teaching group practice dedicated to providing inclusive clinical therapy and training.
Mona’s research on bicultural identity and belonging led her to develop the patent-pending Belonging Integration Model. Her research in belonging teaches folks how to create connection in the world around them and the world within themselves. Just from the bio alone, dear listener, you can tell why I love her so much.
Oh, I’m so happy to see you. And I know that when I was on your podcast, you shared the story of how we met. And now I’m going to share it here because it’s so fun that we were both told by a mutual friend to sort of be on the lookout for one another. And in the bathroom, in Phoenix, at Hay House’s “I Can Do It”, we found each other standing next to one another, looking in the mirror thinking, we could be sisters, we could be cousins!
And I do feel like from the moment we laid eyes on one another, we felt an instant connection.
Mona Nour: Yeah, it was an instant kinship. And by the way, thank you so much for that beautiful introduction, Nancy. Um, pretend cousin, Nancy. It’s just, you know, it’s interesting how that happens sometimes to certain people. There’s this instant spark. This is instant mirroring. And so it’s interesting that we were standing in the mirror next to one another because it did feel like whether I was looking in an actual physical mirror or turning, looking at you, I felt very seen one way or another. And for that, I’m deeply, genuinely so grateful that we were brought together.
And so, our mutual friend is a lifer now, like, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. If they weren’t already like that, seal the deal. Yeah. Yeah. Just the deep gratitude. So yeah. Thank you so much for having me here today. I’m really, really excited to have this conversation with you.
Nancy Levin: Me too. And I’m really looking forward to unpacking belonging from your perspective.
Mona Nour: you know, belonging was something that I have been curious about from a very, very, very young age, I think, since childhood without having the language to call it that. I think it’s a word that we’ve been using in more recent pop culture, but that’s been around in academia for a few decades now, maybe like ten years. Still not very long, but just for the last few decades, that feeling of wanting human connection of needing human connection, inherently having to have it in order to survive has been there since the beginning of time.
In childhood, my first experience of feeling like I didn’t belong was as early as preschool. I went to preschool with big curly hair, brown skin, and big green eyes. And I lived in the home of the Ku Klux Klan at that time, in the mid-seventies. And that was a very, very, very scary time for so many black and brown bodies, particularly black bodies where I lived. Uh, and brown bodies just simply didn’t exist in my hometown at that time. So, there was a lot of confusion about who I am and what I am. People would ask me, what are you? What are you? I get that all the time, too.
Anyone ethnically ambiguous gets that question all the time, and we all know it. Even right now, I feel a sense of mirroring and connection. It became a lifelong journey for me to really reclaim this question that felt so othering: What are you? And, transform that into who am I? And so this perpetual identity crisis that I was having for decades of my life ended up leading to research.
I have a friend who said research is me-search. Actually, another Hay House author is Dr Giovanni Washington. Research is me-searching. So, I think I was obsessed with myself and everyone else. And I always say, hopefully not in a creepy way, but just wanting to understand what this human experience is about.
Why are we here? What are we doing here? Why do we need each other? Why does it hurt when we feel rejected by someone? Why does any of that matter? And what are we seeking? In the research, what I found is that there are actually four primary areas where we seek to experience that spark, that human connection, that experience of really upholding one [ another and feeling like we belong, and those spaces were and are something that kind of build upon each other.
So it’s first, the self. The next thing would be in one-on-one relationships where we hope to experience at least human connection. So, our interpersonal relationships and then building from that would be in community. Any place where people gather and have shared values in some way.
And then, from that, it is in a universal context. And that actually is where we can get really creative. That could be in nature. That could be. And the world. Do I feel like I belong in the world? Do I feel like I belong in this state that I live in? Do I feel like I belong in this country that I live in and this region of the country that I live in? Do I feel like I belong in this large organization where I work? That’s really a place that’s bigger than a community.
That gave more breadth to the idea of belonging because oftentimes, when we perceive belonging, we think of it as a group of people, and we think of it as “I want to be accepted by a group of people.”
But really, when we are able to expand where we’re able to experience human connection, it gives us so much more agency and where we can experience that and not just rely on this one group of people, like our family, or this group of friends that we’ve kind of fallen into, or our colleagues at work who maybe we have some rift with sometimes, or we don’t feel like we quite connect. It gives us a lot more empowerment in the spaces where we can experience that connection.
So that’s been, that’s been part of the journey.
Nancy Levin: I so appreciate this. You know, one of the things that I love about your belonging integration model is that it has four elements. And it has to begin with belonging to ourselves first. Yes?
Mona Nour: It can, but it doesn’t have to.
So, you know, in the spiritual world and kind of more new age-ish spaces, we talk a lot about self-love, but the thing is, is that we all need each other and just the way that you and I felt some spark when we saw each other. That belongingness that I felt with you mirrored back and ushered me back to myself in some ways. When I went to your session right after that bathroom break, you were teaching a session, the Hay House event, and it was on shadow work. I love your work in it. And there were parts of myself that I had abandoned. Okay, so I did not belong to certain parts of myself, specifically certain shadow parts, right? I would say that my interpersonal relationship with you, connection with you, the teachings you gave, and feeling like I belonged and that I was safe in your presence with you helped usher me back to those parts of myself.
So that I could feel like I belong to myself and have an extended version of self-belonging. So, yeah, we can use these different spaces to bring us back. We see this happen all the time, and mental health therapy. I’m a therapist, right? We go to a therapist, and we go there in that interpersonal relationship, along with their knowledge and skills, and the rapport you build with them helps usher you back to yourself.
We can do that in communities where we go to spaces where people do this all the time when they go to spiritual or religious spaces. It could even be in a yoga class, right? Or maybe in a church or a temple or a mosque for some people, or a drum circle, where they go there and they’re in that community, and that community helps usher them back to themselves.
And so that’s one way that we don’t have to feel so alone in our self-discovery journey.
Nancy Levin: So then that makes me think of these elements of belonging, even that you outlined, you know, from self to sort of one-on-one, to community, to universal. It’s not linear.
Mona Nour: No, it is. What’s the word I want?.
Nancy Levin: Dovetailing? Integrating?
Mona Nour: Yeah. Very much. They also have different layers to them. So, if we think of the different types of belonging, self-belonging, interpersonal, belonging, community, and universal belonging, there are four different types of belonging. Think of those as spaces in our lives where belonging provides opportunities to feel connection.
But then the question comes in: What is belonging? That’s a different question altogether. Like, how are we defining it? Most people reduce the definition of belonging as being accepted. And while that is true again, it’s reductionistic. It’s not capturing the whole picture and all the different ways that we can feel that spark, so to speak.
When I looked at my research, which included some actual studies and interviews with people, a large quantitative study, and clinical interviews with my clients, I found that there are three different layers of belonging. So, there are four types of breadth. So, it’s broadening this, where we experience belonging beyond community, and the three different elements of belonging are its depth.
So, we have being seen, and that’s not necessarily physically, but it’s being seen as when someone, whether it’s ourselves or someone else or community, um, or feeling that in larger systems means that we feel that someone can identify our likes or dislikes, our interests, our identities, our lived experiences, our personalities, our quirks, all these things that make us who we are right are. Um, it could be, you know, the different demographics that we have an identity, like, I’m a Southerner, right? Like, someone really understands what it’s like to be southern, or they really know all the nuances of that, then, you know, that’s something where I feel seen like they know how to make sweet tea, and they start me some sweet tea. Right? They really get it. Right? That would be an example of it being embraced, which is another layer of it. That’s how most people think of it: being accepted is what most people will say.
But being embraced means that there’s this conditional positive regard, this interest, this psychic connection, this feeling that we have with someone where it feels like we are deeply accepted. Now, what’s interesting about being embraced is that you don’t have to be seen in order to be embraced. We see this happen a lot of times in friendships or even in families.
Right? So, you know, I don’t always feel really seen by my parents, for example, but I feel embraced. I feel like my parents really, really love me unconditionally and that, regardless of all my quirks, they don’t really get. They’re kind of like, I don’t really get her all the time. I feel like they are going to embrace me, love me, and be there as a support system for me regardless. So that’s where they’re different. So, one doesn’t lead to the next.
And then the third would be celebration. A celebration of self is when we are able to have someone or some group of people in our lives who are able to acknowledge us and our lived experiences in a respectful way. That is either public or private and actually is a behavior. So being seen is, is being deeply understood. Being embraced is being unconditionally and lovingly accepted and being celebrated as an action. It’s something that we actually do, or someone does for us, and they don’t have to come in any particular order. So we see this happen with high achievers all the time where they will be celebrated and possibly embraced, but maybe not really deeply seen. So, people might just be like, wow, that’s amazing, cheering and clapping them on. Athletes, like, high-performing athletes, for example, or, you know, the straight students, but not really seen necessarily the grind of what they’re going through and what their experiences are behind the scenes besides that a plus or besides that high mark or besides that gold medal, for example, so they can, there can be a different combination of those things.
So, the goal is: the more spaces in our lives—self and a personal community, universal—that we can experience belonging, and the more layers within those spaces that we can experience belonging being seen, embraced, and celebrated within those different layers and in the spaces where they all overlap, the richer our experiences can be.
Nancy Levin: Hi, it’s Nancy interrupting my own show. I’ve got a lot of exciting things coming up in 2024, including a brand-new book. Plus, a group coaching opportunity unlike anything else I have ever offered before. To make sure you are in the know, pop on over to my website now and sign up for my free weekly newsletter at nancylevin.com/newsletter. So you don’t miss a thing.
Okay. Back to the show.
Nancy Levin: I really love the way that you are sharing about this and what happens. For those of us, when we are missing elements of belonging, when, like, you know, like the example you gave the athlete or the, you know, the type a and getting the celebration or, you know, but not getting the deeply understood. What happens when we’re not met in certain arenas?
Mona Nour: Yeah. And so, on the one hand, the more layers that we are experiencing provides more richness. Then the flip side of that is the less layers that we’re experiencing provide some level of isolation, right? Even if we feel some level of belongingness within a particular area, there will be some level of isolation or disconnect that we can experience within that space. Or lack of fullness, you could say. So I could be like, I really wish my mom would just get it. I wish that she could just get it.
There’s work to be done and choices to be made there. Is the goal always to have all of the things met all of the time by one particular person? Not necessarily. That puts a lot of pressure on one person and is also not always realistic. And so, we can be setting ourselves up for disappointment. So, what we want to do is diversify our portfolio, so to speak.
Nancy Levin: It takes a village.
Mona Nour: It takes a village. So we’re looking at interpersonal relationships, which is something that a lot of people focus on. We’re looking at interpersonal relationships. Do I have people in my life who see me? Do I have one-on-one relationships in my life? People who embrace me?
Do I have one-on-one relationships with people who celebrate me in my life? That would be more of the goal rather than hoping that this one person can meet the mark on all of those things. You can have loving relationships with people without having all the things within that one relationship.
So, being able to say, you know, what I really love about this particular friendship or this one-on-one relationship I have with someone is that when I need for someone to just really understand me and really mirror back to me these values and feel like they really, really get it. That’s who I go to. That’s the being seen when I need just to vent and be able to just let it all out. I don’t necessarily need any advice, or I don’t need that person to understand, but I just know that I can just yell, scream, cry, or just process a little bit. You know, this is the person I can go to. That’s the embrace. Maybe they’re the same person. Maybe they’re not. When I need a cheerleader in my corner, this is the person I can go to.
This allows us to value people for where they are, what they are, and how they’re showing up.
Nancy Levin: So a little bit ago, you said that the sort of working definition we have for belonging doesn’t quite cut it. What is the definition then that you bring forward?
Mona Nour: Yeah. So, I define belonging as the experience of being seen, embraced, and celebrated across four different areas—self, interpersonal, one-on-one relationships, community, and macro systems. And the key there is that I just said the word, but it’s really and or celebrated. So it’s any combination of those spaces. And again, the more we have, uh, you know, the more we feel seen, embraced and celebrated in these different areas, the richer our human experience is in terms of connection and feeling that spark. And when we feel that spark, that brings so much motivation for us. And it helps tether us to this world. It’s really hard to be tethered to this world when we don’t have those things. And so, for people who are feeling really isolated and really lonely, there tend to be certain areas that are more easily accessible than others. So, there have been periods of my life, for example, where I did not feel like I had a community that really got me. I had friends, but I didn’t really feel that spark. I’ll put it that way. I had people around me, but I didn’t feel that spark. I had one-on-one relationships.
I was part of communities, but I didn’t feel that spark. I was in careers that I wasn’t happy with. I didn’t feel the spark.
The way that I took agency over, creating my own belonging, was by starting with universal belonging, and for me, I found life’s purpose. Life’s purpose generally lies in that universal belonging space. It’s that thing—bigger than community, as I said before. And so I decided I’m going to start aligning what I do and how I show up in the world with what I feel is a life purpose or a life calling for me. I decided I was just going to choose what that calling was. I wasn’t waiting for it to show up, either. I’m like, this is what I’m going to make of my life: being in this heart space and being in a place of service. Okay. What is that going to look like?
So that started ushering me into other spaces. What happened is that I went on to get a PhD. When I went to get a PhD, I was literally sitting in classrooms with people who shared my values. All of a sudden, I started having community belonging.
So, the universal belonging ushered me into community belonging from there. I would start asking. I had to have a lot of courage and start asking for study buddies. Hey, do you want to run some things past each other? So, I started building one-on-one interpersonal relationships with those who are still friends with me to this day, who introduced me to other people, and I introduced them to other people. Then, we created new communities. And that was actually when I developed the counselling practice. I created belonging for myself. For other people, it just all builds from each other, and that way, And then I started meeting people, you know, along the way, not and then, but throughout that process, I met people who really started asking me more questions about myself. It started making me think, am I this or am I that? Or, You know, and I’d see them doing things, and we’re relational beings.
So, comparing ourselves to other people is not pathological. By the way, that’s when we add judgment to it. So I’d say, Oh, you’re like this. Well, am I like that? And so I started seeing myself even more, and I became richer and richer. So, pick one thing. That’s what I would say for anybody who’s feeling isolated from me.
What’s most important to me, what I value the most right now, is feeling some sense of purpose because I felt so directionless. That’s what was calling to me, so that was kind of the easy thing to touch.
Nancy Levin: So fascinating. So fascinating. I mean, because, of course, we are all looking through our own lens first and foremost.
So earlier, when I said to you, “Well, it has to begin with belonging to self, right?” You said not necessarily. Yours began with belonging universally and then the trajectory you took. Mine took the 180-degree opposite trajectory. So mine did begin with self, then interpersonal, then community, and then universal.
That’s just fascinating to me because I think any one of us will be drawn to the point where we can first find our way in, what draws us in, or what calls us in, in terms of our sense of belonging or not, and then expand from there.
And I love your language about a one-on-one connection ushering you deeper into yourself.
Mona Nour: Yes. Yes. It wasn’t completely linear. I was just describing one part of it, but all these other nuanced things are happening in the middle of that.
Like I, with a new partner, there’s this symbiotic thing happening where we’re going back and forth, like, Oh, but then I’m learning this about me. And then what does that say about you? I don’t know. What does that say about me? And so there’s, you know, he is providing me during that process.
More interpersonal belonging and sometimes not, sometimes we would really butt heads on things as most of us do. And so we’ve learned to press pause and go into an even more nuanced part. This is like more advanced belonging. Yeah. Right. And that was like, this is like, now we’re going to belong like 301.
But that was really what I call symbiosis. There are three different kinds of symbiotic relationships. There is para sadism where one is benefiting, and the other is being harmed. There’s commensalism, where someone is benefiting and the other person is neither harmed nor benefiting. And then there is mutualism, where both parties are benefiting. And when we go way back in time, when I was saying that I was feeling isolated, even though I had a lot of people around me, it was because there were relationships that were parasitic and so we had to look at, like, what kind of symbiosis is happening? And it was parasitic. They were benefiting, and I was being harmed, which, by the way, many people who are healers know that feeling.
At any given moment in my relationships, when things are feeling a little bit, kind of like, Hmm, let me pause here for a second because things are feeling a little strange, and I’m not sure what that is, I’m in the business of naming because I like to know things. If I name things, then I know what I’m working with. And I’ll say, wait, what kind of, is this mutualistic? Is this commensalism? Does this feel parasitic right now? And that helps me make decisions from there on how I want to move forward in those relationships so that I’m not possibly perpetuating that feeling of isolation, which is the opposite of belonging.
One of the things that I just want to bring up is Nancy that I love so much about the work that you’re doing. Shadowwork allows us to create more belonging across all of those areas. It really, really does. And that has been one of the kind of overlaps, I would say. I think belonging work and shadow work can really support one another in many ways, but I have been doing more shadow work with you more recently. By the way, I’ve been introducing it more and more to my clients. And I’m seeing the same thing happen with them. It has allowed kind of going back to the self, right? Yes. What you were talking about really starting that space.
So it makes sense to me that that’s where you would start looking at our shadows, but going in that space has allowed me to expand my sense of self. So now I’m seeing more of myself just by naming these shadow areas. Yeah. And then taking that judgment out, not even inviting that and take it out, don’t even let it in the door. And that allows me to go deeper into embrace. And then there are ways that I’m able to celebrate it, even just by naming it by saying, you know, what, there’s a part of me right now that is saying this and this and that is saying, you know, that saying, you know, why are you being so lazy? That is my cue that I’m probably working too hard. It’s time to be lazy and relax a little bit. It’s interesting how that’s happened.
It’s improved my interpersonal relationships and even in community, like within our practice, because I’m not projecting those shadows on other people.
Nancy Levin: I’m so glad you said this because I have been feeling this too, that there is such an intersection between shadow work and your work around belonging and this way in which the more we’re willing to dig into our own shadow and see ourselves. Understand ourselves, embrace ourselves and celebrate ourselves. The more capacity we have to be available to do that for others. And it brings in an enormous element of compassion. If I can have compassion for these elements in me, I can have compassion for these in you and vice versa. If I have compassion For these qualities in you, I can also have compassion for these qualities in me.
Mona Nour: Yes, And then we can belong back to one another again for ourselves.
Nancy Levin: I have to bring in another piece here. So, I’m really curious about the binary of belonging and isolation. You did link isolation and loneliness a little bit ago. So, maybe this even means we have to unpack isolation a little bit. So, and I’m just, you know, using this, I’m just using myself as an example.
Mona Nour: Yeah, let’s do it.
Nancy Levin: I am someone who deeply needs and values my alone time, solitude, and being with myself, which could be perceived as isolation. So, I’m curious because it’s not how it relates to isolation. And I just told someone the other day I’m not someone who experiences boredom and loneliness. Like these are not things that I don’t say I’ve never experienced, but they’re not, they’re not sort of in my usual, You know, my usual reference place. So, I do feel a strong sense of belonging to myself, others, community, and the world at large. But I also really cherish my isolation.
Mona Nour: So let’s unpack it and I love that you brought this up. Yeah. So, the way I think of isolation is an exterior construct. That’s different. That involves other people, right? That means that you are removed in some way. There’s space in some way between you and other people. Does that mean physical space? Maybe. Does that mean emotional space? Maybe. Does it mean energetically feeling isolated or being isolated? Maybe. And feeling and being are different? We’ll get to that in a second.
Loneliness is an interior experience. It is feeling alone, like you don’t belong to yourself. Right, possibly, or that there is this desire to connect with others. And for some reason, there’s some disconnect, but the desire is there to separate isolation.
When it’s by choice, it means I’m isolating myself. Okay. That is an action verb on your part, rather than I’m feeling isolated or you have lost agency in that. And that’s where you’re feeling ostracized by others in some way or disconnected, not by your own choice.
Does that help break it down a little bit?
Nancy Levin: Chosen isolation or separation versus imposed isolation or separation. s.
Mona Nour: Okay. Isolating yourself versus being isolated by others.
Nancy Levin: I love this. I learn so much from you. And I appreciate having this kind of nuanced conversation because I feel it’s quite nuanced.
Mona Nour: Yeah, it is. Yeah. That’s why I wanted to come in and do this work. I tried to capture those nuances in the model itself, and we haven’t even gotten that much into the overlaps. That’s like another conversation, but the overlaps capture even more of the nuance.
And when I say overlaps, you actually look at the belonging integration model. Yeah. Physically, or imagine it in your mind. It looks similar to a Venn diagram. So, the self-interpersonal community and universal all overlap because those spaces don’t live individually. You know, I am myself, and then I’m in relation to my partner. He and I are part of a group practice, right? A mental health group practice. So we’re now part of a community. That interpersonal relationship is community, and that community is part of a larger field of mental health, universally. That would be an example of how there are several overlaps there.
Nancy Levin: And I have no idea if this was intentional. The minute I first looked at the graphic of your belonging model integration, it looked like a lotus flower.
Mona Nour: And it wasn’t intentional. It was not!
Nancy Levin: I have chills right now, and it’s even cooler that it wasn’t intentional. It is amazing how much like a lotus flower it looks.
Mona Nour: Yeah. And I find that so funny because I’m Egyptian. And so oftentimes Lotus flowers are used in an Egyptian, you know, different kinds of depictions of Egyptian artwork. And it was not intentional. It was really a logistics, um, problem that I was facing that if I did it in a four-part where it was, you know, one part like quadrant kind of North, what is North one South ones, East one West, there was one overlap that wasn’t captured.
Yeah. And I couldn’t figure out how to capture it, so I had to manoeuvre it in all these different ways. And I was like, oh, it captured all of it. And, you know, that was kind of funny watching me trying to cross reference all the overlap variations, combinations and permutations.
And so it, you know, the lotus flower look came up, and I did not even know that until people started. Uh, saying that to me, I was like, Oh yeah, I guess it does. And then I heard it over and over and over again. So yeah, it’s cool how it worked out that way.
Nancy Levin: And the other thing about the graphic to me is the other thing I thought instantly when I saw it for the first time was how feminine it feels, which to me isn’t about feminine or masculine, just means like there is an invite, there’s an invitation, there’s a welcoming, there’s something that feels inviting and enveloping at the same time.
Mona Nour: Oh, thank you so much for saying that. That is the intention of it. I had not thought of that in terms of how the graphic looks. I think because when you start looking at it so much, you know, you’re creating it.
Nancy Levin: Yeah, I think it’s all the roundness. The curves, whereas we’re used to seeing things like this, even if we see a Venn diagram of like two circles with the middle, or we’re used to seeing like four quadrants, you know, or we’re used to seeing something that doesn’t feel inviting, and this feels so inviting, which makes perfect sense because obviously belonging, ultimately an invitation that’s open to us that we step in to receive and co-create that’s right.
Mona Nour: Yes. Oh, thank you for saying that. That’s beautiful. Nancy. That is beautiful. Thank you. So, so much. I really appreciate you.
Nancy Levin: I appreciate you too. I’m going to bring you back because I want to talk to you more. We’ll talk in other ways, too. And I, I so, uh, do appreciate not only the belonging I feel with you, but the belonging I feel at the intersection of the work we are here to do in the world. And so our purpose, passion, and mission are all intertwined.
I cherish you and I cherish this conversation. Thanks for being here.
Mona Nour: Thank you so much, Nancy. You know, I love you, and I appreciate you. And I think we have a lot of fun ahead of us. Thank you again. I appreciate you inviting me on the show.
Nancy Levin: So, what is the best way for people to stay connected to you?
Where are you on social media the most or your website? Where would you like to send people?
Mona Nour: Yeah. So, if people go to my website, drmonanour.com. You’ll find all the things. You’ll find my newsletter. You’ll find links to my social. You’ll find the podcast. You’ll find all the podcasts on YouTube. The links are there. They’re also on all the different audio platforms: Apple and Spotify.
So yeah, drmonanour.com
Nancy Levin: Wonderful. Thanks so much for being here again and for everyone listening, I’ll be back with you again next week.
Nancy Levin: Thanks so much for joining me today. I invite you to head on over to nancylevin.com to check out all the goodies I have there for you. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a rating and review. I’ll meet you back here next week.